Natalee Holloway - The Rumors Turn

Still a lot of chatter on the Holloway investigation, especially in light of the recent civil suit. There may be some minor updates here.

It seems a discrepancy is emerging over whether or not Satish actually drove Joran Van Der Sloot home. You can't dismiss the notion that if either of the Kalpoes did indeed drive Joran home that night, as some ealier reports suggest, then at least one, if not two people may have known that there was a young blonde American girl passed out or sleeping on a beach nearby, and basically out of view.

Were that the case, it appears as though Joran might not have had access to a vehicle for a quick return to the beach. That obviously can't be said for all of the boys.

Comments

[sensible]

Koch says Satish did not pick JVDS up. But you're right. If JVDS called and the 2K wouldn't pick him up, those two knew Natalee was at the beach.

Have been unable to get to the underground all day. Typepad keeps bringing up an error message when trying to sign in.

Garrison says Julia R. is the one that notified ? that the VDS family was on the way to NY. Supposedly she did this because she was upset they wouldn't give her the interview. Of course, according to news reports Julia is also upset with the Twittys - so why help them?

I found it interesting that the co-author along with Dave Holloway and Garrison, R. Stepanie Good, is Garrison's sister.

[Paulina]

I cant believe Larry Garrison would repeat such disgusting rumours about Natalee being pregnant with her stepdads baby. Seems as if Greta has opened a forum for Larry Garrison and Julia Renfro to attack each other.

[Skye]

Apparently Joran failed to tell Satish that Satish picked him up that night. OR Joran is lying again.

Question....to the JK2 supporters....who are you going to believe?

[wreck]

After all this, there are still grand supporters that J2K are all innocent little angels in all this. So who is the biggest liar here? : Joran? The Kalpoes? The Kalpoes Attorney? Julia Renfro? Dompig? Cohen?

My opinion -- all of them

[woebegone]

I tend to think along the same lines as dan right now. When the Twitty's showed up at the house, Joran was trying to speak, and who kept saying "say nothing Joran"? Deepek.

IF Deepek and or Satish went back to the beach after taking Joran home who would know?

[c]

Joran was trying to speak, and who kept saying "say nothing Joran"? Deepek.

-- that was because the Alabama boys for saying that we were going to
kick your ass !!! -that prompted Deepak to say that....

Has this rumour been verified that JOran was dropped by one of the Kalpoes ?
Also did the Aruban authoroties knew about it ? (if they did, I am sure they
must have verified if the story was correct)....

[bella]

Testing- having some sign-in issues.

[Bella]

Testing one more time

[danascully]

I, too, am having trouble getting over there,,,,

[RstJ]

Well, this certainly explains why Satish's lawyer (Kock) was talking about that "fishermen and white suzuki" thing. Basically, Kock was saying that Joran's a liar and that he was never on that beach w/Natalee. We've always thought the disconnect was between Joran and Deepak. Now it's looking like it was between Joran and Satish.

Well, let's see what the "Predator" has to say about all this come Thurs...

RstJ

[danascully]

I had to go to another site that uses typepad and sign in that way to get in over there in the Underground.....

[it'sjustme]

If Julia R. is writing a book,saying all that garbage about NH,she'll be next in line for civil & slander suit.The whole bunch from Aruba are money hungary.That's how the Sloots got slapped with their papers----following the money.HAHAHAHA

[Myth]

Just for the record Joran and the his parents did the interviews for free, ABC only paid the air fair and the Hotel for two days.

[VANDERSLUTSARECRIMNALS]

OPEN LETTER TO MRS. VAN DER SLOOT

by Richard, Vermont USA

So far, you are the cool one. Your vapid smile has been seen on TV, but otherwise you have drawn little notice. Indeed, I cannot even remember your name.

Do you enjoy your anonymity, seeing in it a refuge from the hate and contempt directed at the rest of your family members? When you lie in bed at night, what do you think of? Good times in the past? Or do you sense the tension, the silent acknowledgement of guilt, the fog of amorality gone bad that even you must recognize by now? “Oh, Joran is such a good boy….” The statement that every mother might be expected to say.

I’m sure that the Aruba government would like your photo to be on the front page of every newspaper, dutifully preparing his favorite food in a congenial household meal. But at night, do you ever think of that night? Of muted, half-conscious cries and struggles by the beach? Of brutal force? What kinds of thoughts go through your mind? Do you ever trade places with the other mother in this saga, or do you close your eyes and heart and thoughts? “Oh, Joran is such a good boy ….”

My friend once told me that when your husband was going in for questioning, he once turned to you in the presence of the TV cameras and growled, “GET IN HERE!” as though you were a trained dog behaving badly. Is that indeed how you see yourself? Or do you fear what might happen to you? Is survival your only concern? Do you know that you too might go missing, at the behest of your own family? Do you look at them and see the knowledge of murder?

No doubt you dare not talk with them about the looks that you can sometimes see in their eyes. What future do you see? Will you deny your knowledge for the rest of your life, hoping to pass quiet days in a house darkened to keep off the Caribbean heat? Do you think that refusing to speak out will make the nightmares go away? Or do you have a needle, a bottle, or something else to dull the senses and keep the ghosts at bay? Not only the ghosts of what has happened, but the ghosts of what could have been – for you must know that only criminals and Aruba government officials now tolerate the van der Sloots.

And when your days are ending, if you are allowed to live out a natural lifespan, what visions will you see at the end, and struggle to deny? Will you run from the truth your whole life? And when your family are rotting in prison, should that come to pass … do you think that anyone will heed your cries, or care for you? If you do not speak out, you will be remembered as the handmaiden of evil. Shutting your eyes to the last … “Oh, Joran is such a good boy ….” It will not redeem you.

This 1916 poem, "The Fence," by Carl Sandburg is worth your reading and thinking about. For we all have metaphorical fences in life ... but yours is not destined to last. "Now the stone house on the lake front is finished and the workmen are beginning the fence. The palings are made of iron bars with steel points that can stab the life out of any man who falls on them. As a fence, it is a masterpiece, and will shut off all the rabble and all vagabonds and hungry men and all wandering children looking for a place to play. Passing through the bars and over the steel points will go nothing except Death and the Rain and To-morrow."

February 2, 2006
SCOTT PETERSON AND JORAN--BLOOD BROTHERS?

I began my personal search for truth regarding the Natalee Holloway case almost eight months ago. Within a couple of weeks of her disappearance on Aruba I began to wonder about the individuals that were currently be held on suspicion on the Island.

I am not a psychologist nor am I a psychiatrist and I must add for clarity that what I say and do is my opinion and my views and are not reflective of anything but my own thoughts. Some of what I write about is public knowledge and some is speculation on my part. I do not pretend to have the answer as to what happened to Natalee and I have never met the suspects or anyone connected with the case.

I looked at the main suspect Joran van der Sloot, and I listened to him speak and eventually I came to the conclusion that something was amiss. I began to believe in my own mind that Joran was not the boy being portrayed by his mother and father in interviews. Aside from the cockiness and the apparent lack of feelings that he has displayed regarding a girl who hasn't been since he last admitted to dropping her off on a sandy beach on Aruba, there was something more. I looked into his eyes and there was no "there...there". He seemed to me like an empty vessel comprised of bravado and arrogance and even more, he seemed to have absolutely NO compassion or empathy for this girl. Even if she was a stranger to him who he had only known for a few short hours there should have been some compassion for her plight and for her family. I observed none from this young man.

I began to think of a word that I have often used in researching individuals who are suspected or known to have committed crimes against their fellow human beings. I thought of Scott Peterson and Ted Bundy and Angelo Buono of the Hillside Strangler case. I thought of Dennis Rader, the BTK killer and I began to see some similarities to this boy with no apparent compassion or empathy in his voice or words or eyes. Was he one of THEM? Was he a sociopath who is incapable of feeling anything for any other human being other than himself? Was he devoid of remorse?

I can't be one hundred percent sure because as I stated above I have no reports from professionals to back up my own feelings of unease whenever I see or hear this boy speak. Natalee Holloway is still missing and the people who claim to be looking for her have often caused me to doubt the sincerity of their efforts. I won't go into all of the reasons for that because most of the readers here have already formed their opinions and observed what is going on in Aruba.

They have heard the Deputy Chief of Police speak and the hired American Spokesperson, Steve Cohen. They have heard the shrill words of Arlene Ellis Shipper and the rest of the pep squad who were hired to defend Aruba against charges of neglect and corruption and failure to do a proper investigation. There is no need for me to reiterate all that is known about this case and to remind the readers of this site that there are many unanswered questions and that with each so-called forward movement there are ten steps back which places us all at the beginning...May, 2005 and the night that Natalee disappeared without a trace. No television show will send it's lead actors to find her and no crime lab will solve the case in an hour and obviously no Aruban official will speak directly to any of us with the information that we here in America have come to expect of our own investigative bodies. It just doesn't work that way on Aruba.

So, I will leave it to you the reader to agree or disagree with me when I claim to have a sense that the boy in question is not "there" in the normal sense that we expect people to be and that he does not act in the way that we expect people to act when confronted with a situation like Natalee Holloway's.

It is all the more frightening when one knows that he most likely really WAS THERE during Natalee's last hours.

[kim]

you mean i missed all this while watching those drama queen
italian ice skaters. we still don't know jack. however, watch out for
the quiet one with a blabber mouth lawyer. the wannabe on
tv julia, has been back stabbing all since day one.

[Maxifacation]

Twitty & Holloway vs. van der Sloot – Who is really to Blame for Natalee’s Disappearance?

By: Steve Yuhas

We all know about Natalee Holloway: adult female from middle class Alabama flies to Aruba to drink and party as an adult because it was not legal to do it in America on a senior trip. She leaves a bar with some men she does not know and is never seen again. Beth Twitty vows never to leave Aruba (she left) until she finds her daughter and since the boycott did not work and they can’t get much face time on television Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway have decided to file suit and seek money instead of finding their daughter.

Joran van der Sloot as well as his father, Paulus, were served with court papers naming both as defendants in a case that accuses Joran of "malicious, wanton and willful disregard of the rights, safety and well-being of the plaintiffs and their daughter, Natalee Holloway." Paulus is accused of "knowingly facilitated his own son's predatory ... behavior toward Natalee Holloway."

The Plaintiff’s lawyer said, "This is a case about a high-school graduation trip to a tropical paradise that turned to tragedy. The trip was an opportunity for a group of young people to celebrate the end of one phase of their lives and the beginning of another. But for one young woman on that ill-fated trip, paradise it was not. For that young woman, Natalee Holloway, the trip was a brutal contrast to a life full of promise and hope." How poetic, but wrong.

This is a case about an adult woman who made bad decisions while she was partying in a foreign country. This is a case about a family that sent their admittedly naïve daughter to a foreign country and did not teach her that getting into cars or going to the beach with strangers could be dangerous. This has become a case about money because the family of Natalee Holloway cannot do anything else.

Don’t you miss the media set ups that Beth orchestrated by chasing her own suspects down at their jobs with cameras following? What happened to the boycott that the misguided (and obviously ignored) governors of Alabama and Arkansas endorsed?

It all flopped so now the Twitty – Holloway clan is looking for Euros instead of Natalee. What a change from last year.

The question really is who put Natalee Holloway into a position for something bad to happen to her?

If we are to believe her family she was just a naïve innocent virtuous girl who went to a foreign country to drink like an adult on a senior trip. How can they now deflect their own guilt onto an entire family that had nothing to do with Natalee being in Aruba to begin with?

But for the Twitty and Holloway families Natalee would be in college today. The van der Sloot’s did not pay for Natalee to go to Aruba and they did not invite her. Natalee’s family sent her there and if they believed her to be so innocent and so naïve then they are to blame for what became of her because they sent a woefully unprepared young adult to a foreign country without preparing her for adulthood.

There are many problems with this case – not the least of which is that nobody knows what happened to Natalee Holloway. There is no body, no crime scene, no confession and nobody confined – the only thing the world has is Beth Twitty’s word that Natalee was perfect, but the evidence tells a different story.

Luckily the van der Sloot’s are not American citizens and it is unlikely that they would still have any assets in America (knowing that in America people sue when their daughter does something stupid) they should drop their suit because it looks dirty and a search for Euros.

The idea that the Dutch citizens would even show up for a civil trial in America to face the parasites from Alabama is unlikely and comical and since Natalee’s life was not worth very much (according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics about $1 million for 40 years of work) – it hardly seems worth the trouble for 838,000 Euro (I hope they understand what a Euro is in Alabama).

The Holloway and Twitty families are the people most responsible for anything that happened to their daughter (until they find a crime). They allowed their naïve and innocent little girl to go to a foreign country to engage in a senior party that would have been illegal in America. Taking the van der Sloots to court in New York is little more than an attempt to get some cash for their missing daughter because they’ve given up – something Beth Twitty said time and again that she would never do.

Suing and collecting a judgment from someone in America is difficult enough because it doesn’t take very much to shelter one’s income and assets from collection. The most that will come from this lawsuit is some airtime on Nancy and Greta; the Twitty-Holloway media center does love the cameras.

Adults accept certain responsibilities when they travel to a foreign country and party like an adult in a manner that would be illegal in their own state (moonshine aside). Either Natalee was an adult in the eyes of her family and is responsible for her action or she was naïve and dumb and should not have been enabled by her own parents to travel on a trip to a foreign country for the purpose of partying like an adult.

They cannot have it both ways by blaming the van der Sloots for the stupidity of their daughter if they enabled her to travel to Aruba to begin with knowing that she was too dumb to handle her alcohol or actions when under the influence.

If anyone is responsible for what happened to Natalee Holloway it is the person who did something to her (if anyone or anything because we just don’t know) or it was the people who sent her and chaperoned her there.

Not the van der Sloots who cannot even be charged in a criminal case, but it is good that Beth Twitty is finding closure in Euros and dollars – it is too bad that she will find that the life of a non-college graduate without any skills is not worth very much.

It is the Twitty’s and Holloway’s who are mostly responsible for their daughter’s demise – not the van der Sloots, but since nothing worked: the boycotts, the media ambushes and the constant appearances on the weekend shows to fill the air time – I suppose all that was left was an Alabaman suing a Dutchman in New York over something that supposedly happened in Aruba.

[brownalmostblackman]

Maxification: Pretty good post! I'm a believer that Natalie's life changed dramatically at 13 years, when her mother remarried. 5 years with the Major will do it. However, Natalie's trip to Aruba as an adult should have been more closely watched by the chaperones and her peers. You know that people do watch out for their own, especially in a situation like this unfortunate one.

[ChinbeardXIV]

After all this, there are still grand supporters that J2K are all innocent little angels in all this. So who is the biggest liar here? : Joran? The Kalpoes? The Kalpoes Attorney? Julia Renfro? Dompig? Cohen?

My opinion -- all of them

Posted by: wreck | Monday, February 20, 2006 at 11:42 PM

Lots of lying in this case...lying includes bearing false witness and claiming facts where only opinions lie, too. I'd say BHT, the MB kids, and pretty much everyone except Dave Holloway have spoken lies.

[woebegone]

I had to go to another site that uses typepad and sign in that way to get in over there in the Underground.....

Posted by: danascully | Tuesday, February 21, 2006 at 01:14 AM

what site would that be? I havent been able to sign in for quite a while now.

[Jon]

If Joran's first story, or even his second story, had been that he was picked up from the M beach by Satish, then I could buy the scenario that Joran was completely innocent and one of the K bros went back and harmed Natalee.

However, this is at least Joran's fourth story. He has previously claimed that Nat was dropped off at the HI, that he was dropped off at home and K2 drove off with Nat, and that he walked home from the M beach. So he's told at least 3 major lies. K2 may be guilty as well (and I think they probably are), but that's too many lies for Joran to be innocent.

[xxx]

There is no reason in the world why at this late date there should be a huge difference in the stories of the suspects.

Joran says Satish picked him up.

Satish says he did not.

This is not a small detail or an inconsistancies, one of them is telling a major lie.

If at least one of them is telling a major lie, about something that if they were innocent, would be an innocuous detail...if no one hurt Natalee then how anyone got home is irrelevant...

Then it is more evidence that the suspects are STILL LYING and to still be lying at nine months and counting is not because they are innocent.

Only a total fool would not see this.

[Jan]

How do we know this is Joran's 4th story - we really know nothing - the Aruban LE do not want us to know anything - and they probably let out false stories just to see what will come of them. If I remember Joran said in Sept that it was Satish - that was when they let the 3 go -- perhaps David Kock does not know the truth - or perhaps he is just being a good lawyer and protecting his client - it is not like he is under oath when talking to reporters! It would not be good for Satish to be the last person with a car that nite! I just do not think we know enough to draw huge conclusions from this - will have to wait and see.
Actually I am more troubled over Julia and her telling the JQK people of the VDS travel plans - that would truly be sad!

[xxx]

I'm sure David Koch does not know the truth.

But right now, February 21, 2006 the stories of the 3 prime suspects do not match.

Joran says Satish drove him home.
Satish says he did not.

Why would three 'innocent' boys still be lying about something so trivial as how they got home after an innocent night with Natalee when nothing bad happened?

[Jan]

Perhaps because who had a car, or who was the last one out alone would now implicate that person the most.

And somehow it makes me think that one of the K's is the most guilty here - If Joran truly was the last one with Natalee and walked - then he looks the most guilty why would the K's in any way cover for him - but if one of the brothers did something or had the car and was not really home - then they would cover for each other and sort of have to protect Joran - it would seem to be the only reason why they would not be jumping from the very beginning saying we were both home - Joran was last with her!!!

[xxx]

All I know is that INNOCENT people do not lie about what should be completely trivial details.

This should put to rest the insane idea that these guys only lied in the beginning because Joran was embarrassed about leaving Natalee on the beach and was afraid of getting in trouble.

She has been missing for NINE MONTHS and it is 100% clear that at least one of the three is STILL LYING.

[Jon]

And somehow it makes me think that one of the K's is the most guilty here - If Joran truly was the last one with Natalee and walked - then he looks the most guilty why would the K's in any way cover for him - but if one of the brothers did something or had the car and was not really home - then they would cover for each other and sort of have to protect Joran - it would seem to be the only reason why they would not be jumping from the very beginning saying we were both home - Joran was last with her!!!

Posted by: Jan | Tuesday, February 21, 2006 at 10:38 AM

Again, the problem with the idea that only K2 are guilty, is that unless you think that both Dompig (in VF) and the civil lawyers are lying/mistaken about Joran also telling versions where K2 dropped him at home and drove off with Nat, and where he left Nat at the beach and walked home, than Joran has told at least four different versions. Possibly five because it has also been reported that at one point Joran was saying Deepak picked him up from the M beach, telling him "don't fuck with the bitch" when he tried to awaken Nat. And innocent people don't tell four or five diffent stories, they usually just tell one, two at the most.

[Doormart]

Hilarious that it was Julia Renfro who actually tipped off that the VDS clan was in NY

Interesting is how she knew that? I guess working as spin doctor for Aruba and VDS.

Folks, if VDS doesnt answer lawsuit and Natalee's family wins a default judgement.....it means everything they claimed in the suit is considered FACT....and the default judgement comes in handy when suing slander meisters like Renfro, Riehl, Steve Yuhas, etc etc. Hard to argue something when one court already has ruled that Natalee's family has established fact

I bet a number opf Arubes are getting the VDS ready for their next NYC trip

[ChinbeardXIV]

If Joran's first story, or even his second story, had been that he was picked up from the M beach by Satish, then I could buy the scenario that Joran was completely innocent and one of the K bros went back and harmed Natalee.

However, this is at least Joran's fourth story. He has previously claimed that Nat was dropped off at the HI, that he was dropped off at home and K2 drove off with Nat, and that he walked home from the M beach. So he's told at least 3 major lies. K2 may be guilty as well (and I think they probably are), but that's too many lies for Joran to be innocent.

Posted by: Jon | Tuesday, February 21, 2006 at 09:30 AM

Suppose...just for a minute...that none of the three actually know how Miss Holloway disappeared. If that were the case--and--every single time they responded with, "I honestly don't know", and the authorities (and general public, for that matter) immediately told them they're lying, then why wouldn't they start making up "what-if?" stories? It's plausible...and...it's a lot more believable than a theory (out of thin air) that the Kalpoes and vdS drugged, raped, killed, and disposed of her.

[berry]

The only way I'll believe the story that Satish came back to the beach to pick up Joran is if Joran says so in his ABC interview. How could the K2s not know Natalee was at the beach? That's where they say they dorpped she and Joran off.

[ChinbeardXIV]

This latest blast of stories and such have brought forth nothing useful, so far. I've said a thousand times that if some sort of evidence (any sort, at this point) were to come forward, I'd gladly eat crow. We're still not beyond a MISSING PERSON at this point though. Where'd she go? That's not my argument...she's just gone.

[xxx]

False exculpatory statements in the United States are considered evidence of consciousness of guilt and can be viewed by the jury as such.

Whether or not this is admissable under so called Aruban law, is beside the point.

An intelligent reasoning person would know that you do not have different stories nine months after the fact if everyone is innocent of any wrongdoing and telling the truth.

Since it is IMPOSSIBLE for Satish to have picked Joran up and not to have picked him up then one of them is lying.

[Lois]

Maxifacation,

I'm surprised that you didn't close the loose ends in your fool's argument by saying that Natalee's parents are responsible for J2K's actions against Natalee because one day they dropped a pebble in the ocean, and somehow this stimulus reverberated across waters, impacting the innocent psyche of a young Joran, planting the seed for him to one day pay them back by raping and murdering their daughter. Therefore, not only is it the Holloway-Twitty's shortcoming that they let Natalee go to Aruba, they're also the cause of the date rape and murder that Joran, Satish, and Deepak visited upon their daughter.

You blame everyone except the ones who took Natalee away and didn't bring her back. That's the classic behvaior of a coward who tries to always side with power--and make excuses for it when it is in the wrong. So much easier to blame Natalee (as though whether or not she was a virgin or a teetotaller makes a damn bit of difference when she's being raped and murdered), her parents, her chaperones--all of whom no doubt have blamed themselves endlessly for their own failures to protect Natalee--than to confront the evil of the predators.

There's plenty of evidence that these boys hurt this girl. It's been suppressed. But under the American system of jurisprudence, it could be revealed. The H-T's filed this case in an effort to obtain this evidence! The cash is inconsequential other than as an added irritant to the VDSs, fully expected in a civil case.

You want to talk about parental guilt? What kind of parents allow their spoiled, arrogant, brute of a 17-year-old adolescent to live in his own separate apartment? --Knowing he regularly indulges in gambling, drinking, and sexual activity? What is that if not aiding and abetting?--And that is not even including any guilt they likely have over helping Joran hide what he did with Natalee.

No, you would rather see the VDSs as innocent victims and blame the Holloway-Twittys, who raised a conscientious child--regardless of whatever picayune transgressions she may have experimented with on her senior trip. The H-T's are the victims! They're the ones who've lost a daughter, and why shouldn't they be furious and willing to fight until the end for justice? Beth doesn't owe it to anyone to lie down and make nice anymore than Natalee owed that to Joran, Deepak, and Satish. Natalee was incapacitated. Beth isn't.

[berry]

IMO - wait until Joran actually says, "I was picked up and driven home by"... someone (Satish or Joran).

I have yet to hear him say that.

Had there been a statement of that kind, the driver of that car would have stayed in jail as long as Joran, since both would have qualified as last known persons to see Natalee.

Also there is much game playing on the internet sites that discuss this case. Right now the family of Natalee wants to cause distrust and controversy and cast aspersions and suspicion on Joran and his parents. Why? Because they are suing.

[ChinbeardXIV]

An intelligent reasoning person would know that you do not have different stories nine months after the fact if everyone is innocent of any wrongdoing and telling the truth.
Posted by: xxx | Tuesday, February 21, 2006 at 11:28 AM

It's sad that you don't open up to the possibility that both parties might be lying. That's my whole point. Unless you've been in that situation, there's no way you can accurately predict how you'd react when you're one of the last KNOWN people to see a missing person. I don't care how many episodes of CSI, COPS, or Barney Miller you watch...nope.

[xxx]

Oh I absolutely think both parties are still lying but I also think both parties are guilty of harming Natalee and know exactly how the night really ended and it was not with Joran walking home barefoot, Satish home in bed, Satish giving Joran a ride home or Natalee being left alive on the beach.

[ChinbeardXIV]

xxx, is there something that makes you believe this theory--even with nothing tangible has show up in the way of evidence? I have to ask...if you honestly feel that JvdS and the Kalpoes (in any combination) harmed Miss Holloway, what did they do with the body AND all of the evidence? Look at OJ Simpson and Scott Peterson...both are adults and yet they still couldn't cover their tails at all. Do you think JvdS and the Kalpoes were able to do just that?

[ChinbeardXIV]

Also...isn't it possible that ALL parties are lying to some degree? I'm including BHT, the MB kids, the van der Sloots, the Kalpoes, etc., etc.???

[xxx]

There are several cases in the U.S. where young people kept silent about horrible crimes for many years.

Maryann Measles in CT was gang raped, murdered, weighted down in a river by half a dozen people all in their teens or early twenties. It took the police FOUR YEARS to crack the case.

A girl named Kiplyn Davis disappeared from h.s. TEN YEARS ago, a grand jury heard 70 witnesses all who had heard parts of a story about her being raped, murdered, burried and her body being moved 2 years after she was killed. One guy is now indicated for murder and several other indictments are coming...These guys were in high school at the time.

What evidence would you accept? You seem to discount any of the circumstantial evidence and incriminating statements.

Conclusive physical and forensic evidence is the rarity NOT the norm, despite what CSI makes people believe.

I think they did rape her and kill her and I think that several people know all or part of this story and they are keeping silent because that is, for the most part, what people do. They don't want to get involved, they don't want to believe their friend/child is guilty so they choose to ignore what they know.

[Bigfish]

test

[Sgt. York]

The thing about this case is that it STUNK from high-heaven from day one. It was obvious the police were disinclined to pursue the cse when they found out it involved the son of a prominent member of the judicial elite. The prosecuter, judge, and other politically well-connected people on the island were friends of the family and assisted in stone-walling the investigation.

===========================

[ChinbeardXIV]

xxx, in the case of Measles, she was raped and killed in an act of vengance against her mother (I think that was the same case) because of pending statutory rape charges, right? Regardless, I think there was some sort of motive (no matter how weak or pointless it was).

As for Davis, I don't recall the case...

In the case of the missing Miss Holloway, there's nothing to lead us to believe that any of the three pseudo-suspects have ever done anything that would suggest a history of violence against women. There's nothing to suggest that a rape occurred. There have been many, many rumours and all sorts of innuendo about sex that may or may not have occurred--but nothing that would prove or disprove it.

Regardless of how I come accross, I'm not pro-JvdS/Kalpoes and I'm not anti-Miss Holloway. I'm simply keeping an open mind until something tangible (whether it is circumstantial or physical evidence) changes it.

It's just an opinion, though...just like your's xxx. I appreciate your responses and this discussion, though.

[xxx]

Evidence of prior violence is not really much good, per Scott Peterson, David Westerfield, and about a million other cases when 'nice/normal' people are found to have committed horrible crimes.

Google "Kiplyn Davis" the case is really interesting, she disappeared in Utah and the case went totally cold, her parents got bummed out about all the media around Elizabeth Smart and wrote to some elected official and asked for a grand jury inquest, which he started...he also got the FBI involved I think and once they started reinterviewing everyone it became clear people were lying...SO, a lot of people were then charged with perjury, and then, in turn, they plea bargained and told the truth.

But the 3 prime suspects in killing this high school sophmore were regular h.s. guys at the time, not thugs or bad guys at all.

The moral of the story is that given a particular set of circumstances, just about anyone is capable of committing a horrible crime, cover it up and keeping silent.

MaryAnn was killed not to get back at her mother but to get back at her for pressing statutory rape charges, those present at her rape and murder were the men she had been having sex with and their girlfriends. Nice,huh?

[Skye]

Why are Joran's fans now willing to blame Satish? Why is it so impossible for any of you that support JVDS to think that he may be the one that is guilty and is trying to shift the blame to the Kalpoe brothers? Joran has lied and continues to lie. The constant internet and media attention to Joran and Paul VDS is driving them insane because of their guilt. It makes them both appear even more guilty.

[ChinbeardXIV]

There's a lot of sickos in this world, xxx, and I remember the fact that Miss Measles was having relations with two older (late teens or early 20's?) men...I hadn't heard about their girlfriends! That's just extremely sad and now I will have to go back and take a look at that case a little deeper.

I will check on Miss Davis' case, too. I don't know how I missed that one...

Your point about prior violence is a good one. I swear, though, this case (Miss Holloway's) just smells different. There's more to the story and I'm not yet convinced that either of the three boys knows what the rest of the story might be.

Just for the record, I believe the evidence in the OJ case was enough to convict, but the Peterson case was too weak to convict, in my own opinion...

[ChinbeardXIV]

Skye, I think people are just reacting to the lack of physical evidence (and, for the most part, circumstantial evidence) against JvdS, so they're jumping on the Kalpoe's-Are-Guilty bandwagon.

We all want closure for the families...all of them.

[roseannroseannadanna]

I hope the Twitty's sue the living begeezuz out of that old slut Renfro. She undermined the investigation and Natalee from the start. I hope Riehl gets a piece of that suit too because of his slanderous posts about NH and her family. Reap what you sew, liars!

[ChinbeardXIV]

The H-T's are the victims! They're the ones who've lost a daughter, and why shouldn't they be furious and willing to fight until the end for justice? Beth doesn't owe it to anyone to lie down and make nice anymore than Natalee owed that to Joran, Deepak, and Satish. Natalee was incapacitated. Beth isn't.

Posted by: Lois | Tuesday, February 21, 2006 at 11:33 AM

There's nothing to lend credibility to this, Lois. Why aren't the Kalpoes and/or the van der Sloots victims? Unless we learn they had a hand in Miss Holloway's disappearance (what rape? what murder?), then they're just as innocent--or would be in OUR courts. If it is found that they've done no wrong, will someone make a big enough apology to them for having totally shaken up their lives...and for having labeled them rapists/killers? Of course not...

[ozzie819]

The bottom line to this horrible saga is this--By telling the TRUTH, there is only ONE version. The true story does not change like the wind. JVS has too many versions---multiple choice, perhaps?

[ChinbeardXIV]

ozzie819, that means assuming that JvdS knows the truth...and that's a huge assumption...

[boywonder]

Suppose...just for a minute...that none of the three actually know how Miss Holloway disappeared. If that were the case--and--every single time they responded with, "I honestly don't know", and the authorities (and general public, for that matter) immediately told them they're lying, then why wouldn't they start making up "what-if?" stories? It's plausible...and...it's a lot more believable than a theory (out of thin air) that the Kalpoes and vdS drugged, raped, killed, and disposed of her.

Posted by: ChinbeardXIV | Tuesday, February 21, 2006 at 11:19 AM

Suppose just for a minute they didnt know...then why in the hell didnt they say that? Why continue to concoct stories out of thin air? Becuase they are all covering for Paulus...seems to me he FOUND OUT about Natalee missing and admitedly coached the 3 in what to say....why would he do that if they are innocent? LE knows that criminals lie and lawyers tell the truth but what do you get when you have a lawyer who is criminal?